Quranic Views of the Torah and Gospel Scriptures?

[Uncovered Faith]

Thank you for sharing. I watched five of Sam Gerrans video’s yesterday and realised that I know nothing! I told God this morning that I feel like I am going around in circles!! Sam said some things that really jarred me but at the same time they resonated deeply. It’s just hard admitting it!

Brand Islam is a good name! I’m well and truly over the Islam of social media. So many young women becoming Muslim and jumping straight in to all the rules and rituals without seemingly understanding the faith at all. So many haram police. I was told by someone that the fly Hadith was a scientific fact When I checked it was a dubious site where the so called experiment was carried out to prove it. Pub Med had a well presented scientific study showing the pathogens in flys being quite dangerous. But these Hadith hurlers can choose to swallow the fly in their tea if they choose! Honestly I wonder where people’s intuition goes?

From my perspective many people identify as being a Christian without ever having attended a church. It’s more cultural than faith based. Most Christians blindly follow their pastors teaching and seldom do their own Bible study. They can repeat a few well known scriptures but beyond that they regurgitate the sermons they have heard. I grew more theologically when I became a Catholic but most Catholics know little of The Bible and prefer stories about Saints than anything else!

I have heard Muslims brag about being able to recite the Quran since an early age. I saw a video of a parrot reciting one of the Surah’s and thought they probably had a similar understanding!

I hope I can find peace eventually. I feel in turmoil with my faith right now.

 

[Rez]

This social club and the cool kids mentality is really never outgrown by many.. this is evident in religion, politics, science even… certainly in offices and workplaces too.

I get it… but I really get it if you know what I mean (and I think you do!) . And like you, I am so over it as well.

My wife is a diamond in the rough really… I know compared to many other men’s lot I am blessed with her… and personally I know this intimately as well too as this is my third ! However, unlike the other two… we have a ‘religious’ marriage as opposed to a legal one… and that makes all the difference in my ‘book’!

However, this issue of Brand Islam is still at play in our dynamic… and she as alluded to previously is still tied into all of that … she gets excited to see a video of Westerners or anyone really from any other faith take this Brand Islam Shahada.. loves to hear their story… and ultimately is disinterested in exactly what they believe as long as they do the 5 ritual sessions and can recite Al Fatiha… and a couple of other verses… walk in with right foot, out with the left… eat with the right… knows what to say entering and exiting.. gets rid of their dog… etc.

Never mind they don’t know what they are saying or what is being said all around them in the club.. that’s not so important.

It’s like knowing the secret handshake or knock… or wearing the toga to a Greek Frat party.. you pass the basic litmus test and you are in!

Sorry to rant.. but really just wanted to return a comment and let you know we are in a sort of club together… but it’s more authentic than that I hope… it isn’t based on superficial things.. or saying the programmatically correct thing but instead being committed to a sort of quest for truth.. be it one of Socratic means or more objective or logical like Ayn Rand … or a critical thinker like Alan Watt… we are asking questions… seeking answers not merely playing along.

Peace to you and yours!

 

[Uncovered Faith]

This social club and the cool kids mentality is really never outgrown by many.. this is evident in religion, politics, science even… certainly in offices and workplaces too.

I get it… but I really get it if you know what I mean (and I think you do!) . And like you, I am so over it as well.

My wife is a diamond in the rough really… I know compared to many other men’s lot I am blessed with her… and personally I know this intimately as well too as this is my third ! However, unlike the other two… we have a ‘religious’ marriage as opposed to a legal one… and that makes all the difference in my ‘book’!

However, this issue of Brand Islam is still at play in our dynamic… and she as alluded to previously is still tied into all of that … she gets excited to see a video of Westerners or anyone really from any other faith take this Brand Islam Shahada.. loves to hear their story… and ultimately is disinterested in exactly what they believe as long as they do the 5 ritual sessions and can recite Al Fatiha… and a couple of other verses… walk in with right foot, out with the left… eat with the right… knows what to say entering and exiting.. gets rid of their dog… etc.

Never mind they don’t know what they are saying or what is being said all around them in the club.. that’s not so important.

It’s like knowing the secret handshake or knock… or wearing the toga to a Greek Frat party.. you pass the basic litmus test and you are in!

Sorry to rant.. but really just wanted to return a comment and let you know we are in a sort of club together… but it’s more authentic than that I hope… it isn’t based on superficial things.. or saying the programmatically correct thing but instead being committed to a sort of quest for truth.. be it one of Socratic means or more objective or logical like Ayn Rand … or a critical thinker like Alan Watt… we are asking questions… seeking answers not merely playing along.

Peace to you and yours!

It’s good to find a safe place to air my thoughts. I honestly thought I was going crazy on social media with Brand Islam. If only they realised how the Hadith are used as weapons to attack Islam. Even scholars like Jonathan Brown endorse them.

 

[GodGuides4:175]

@saidmirza

From what I listened to one of your videos you mentioned Torah briefly (was not primary topic you discussing) and seemed to imply Torah is preserved in text and it's only the "meaning" and "context" of the Torah's words that has changed? Or did I misunderstand you?

Have you explained your belief on Torah and Gospel in video or article so I may understand how you work through this from Quranic perspective? Or do you have articles from someone you agree with on this issue?

On sidenote: I can't view any of Sam's articles on the reader. I can only view footnotes. Is there another way I may access these?

And do you know if Sam has addressed this topic? Coming from Christian background I assume he has considered Mosaic authorship problems for the Pentateuch and studied the manuscripts and history.

 

[Uncovered Faith]

@saidmirza

From what I listened to one of your videos you mentioned Torah briefly (was not primary topic you discussing) and seemed to imply Torah is preserved in text and it's only the "meaning" and "context" of the Torah's words that has changed? Or did I misunderstand you?

Have you explained your belief on Torah and Gospel in video or article so I may understand how you work through this from Quranic perspective? Or do you have articles from someone you agree with on this issue?

On sidenote: I can't view any of Sam's articles on the reader. I can only view footnotes. Is there another way I may access these?

And do you know if Sam has addressed this topic? Coming from Christian background I assume he has considered Mosaic authorship problems for the Pentateuch and studied the manuscripts and history.

Have you checked out Sam’s Substack? Perhaps he has written more there.

 

[GodGuides4:175]

Have you checked out Sam’s Substack? Perhaps he has written more there.

Hmm I'm not aware of the Substack...can you please help me find this? Lol

 

[Uncovered Faith]

 

[saidmirza]

@saidmirza

From what I listened to one of your videos you mentioned Torah briefly (was not primary topic you discussing) and seemed to imply Torah is preserved in text and it's only the "meaning" and "context" of the Torah's words that has changed? Or did I misunderstand you?

Have you explained your belief on Torah and Gospel in video or article so I may understand how you work through this from Quranic perspective? Or do you have articles from someone you agree with on this issue?

On sidenote: I can't view any of Sam's articles on the reader. I can only view footnotes. Is there another way I may access these?

And do you know if Sam has addressed this topic? Coming from Christian background I assume he has considered Mosaic authorship problems for the Pentateuch and studied the manuscripts and history.

Peace,

I honestly do not have an answer to this question. The current Old and New Testament obviously contain a lot of errors when viewed from the Qur'anic perspective. I hold fast to the Qur'an because it contains the complete Writ/Law i.e. it is sufficient for guidance.

And We sent down to thee the Writ with the truth, confirming what is before it of the Writ, and as a control over it. So judge thou between them by what God has sent down; and follow thou not their vain desires away from what has come to thee of the truth. For each of you We appointed an ordinance and a procedure. And had God willed, He could have made you one community; but that He might try you in what He gave you[...]. — So vie in good deeds; unto God will you return all together, and He will inform you of that wherein you differed —
(5:48)

You can access Sam's Addenda to the Qur'an: A Complete Revelation here (we did not add them to the Reader):

 

[Omarew]

There is surely consideration to take about what those who call themselves yahood and nasaara hold as scripture. It is pitiful to see there are Quran-alone people rejecting all previous scripture, saying that what Allah refers to as such has been completely lost. This stance goes against the quran.

- We are ordered to say we believe in previous scripture:
136. Say, “We believe in Allah; and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus; and in what was given to the prophets—from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender.”

- The pious actually do:
4. And those who believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.

- Previous scripture we are told to believe in was already falsified when the book we have came.

- To completely reject what yahood and nasaara hold as scripture is the hallmark of those who don't know:
113. The yahood said, “The Nasaaraa are not based on anything;” and the Nasaaraa said, “The yahood are not based on anything.” Yet they both read the Scripture. Similarly, those who don't know said the same thing. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their differences.

The answer to the question about believing in scripture knowing that it has been changed would come to you, as every truth in the book, only after submitting to Allah's words.
Quran has roots in qarana, which means to bind. Quran allows you, by Allah's will, to discern truth from falsehood in previous scripture.
I received the absolute confirmation about that by studying sourat yousuf, and comparing it to what those who were given the scripture hold in it about Joseph. I'd be happy to demonstrate that.
111. In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not a fabricated tale, but a confirmation of what came before it, and a detailed explanation of all things, and guidance, and mercy for people who believe.

Only when you submit to truth you'd be able to see it.
1. Alif Laam Raa those are the signs of the explicit book.

 

[Rez]

I think we are in agreement. We may differ in this….My position on the true Qur'an is that it encompasses all of God's revelations to mankind, transcending time, ethnicity, society, and nation. It is not confined to a single book or moment in history but is part of a continuous, unified message that has been revealed across cultures and eras. Investigating the entirety of these revelations—from ancient texts to more recent scriptures—is wise, as it reveals a rich tapestry of syncretism and universalism. Despite linguistic and societal changes, the core truths remain consistent, pointing to the oneness of the divine message for all humanity.

 

[GodGuides4:175]

There is surely consideration to take about what those who call themselves yahood and nasaara hold as scripture. It is pitiful to see there are Quran-alone people rejecting all previous scripture, saying that what Allah refers to as such has been completely lost. This stance goes against the quran.

- We are ordered to say we believe in previous scripture:
136. Say, “We believe in Allah; and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus; and in what was given to the prophets—from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender.”

- The pious actually do:
4. And those who believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.

- Previous scripture we are told to believe in was already falsified when the book we have came.

- To completely reject what yahood and nasaara hold as scripture is the hallmark of those who don't know:
113. The yahood said, “The Nasaaraa are not based on anything;” and the Nasaaraa said, “The yahood are not based on anything.” Yet they both read the Scripture. Similarly, those who don't know said the same thing. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their differences.

The answer to the question about believing in scripture knowing that it has been changed would come to you, as every truth in the book, only after submitting to Allah's words.
Quran has roots in qarana, which means to bind. Quran allows you, by Allah's will, to discern truth from falsehood in previous scripture.
I received the absolute confirmation about that by studying sourat yousuf, and comparing it to what those who were given the scripture hold in it about Joseph. I'd be happy to demonstrate that.
111. In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not a fabricated tale, but a confirmation of what came before it, and a detailed explanation of all things, and guidance, and mercy for people who believe.

Only when you submit to truth you'd be able to see it.
1. Alif Laam Raa those are the signs of the explicit book.

Thank you for taking time to write a thoughtful answer. I think I can see your position from the verses you sited and this is helpful for me to sort through this issue more.

I have backed up to asking what was authored by Moses and Jesus? What specifically is the Quran speaking of when is refers to Torah and Gospel?

My concern is that just because we currently lable something "torah" or "gospel" does not automatically mean that is what Quran is speaking of by those words. Just as we both know from Quranic view of even just the salat or Christians meaning of Messiah and Gospel. Religion has a tendency of altering meaning of words. So I want to not just assume at this point.

Do you believe current codified Pentateuch/Torah that we have is the one authored by Moses?

Do you think gospels in New Testament Bible authored by Jesus/what Quran is referring to as the injeel?

And I assume you don't include New Testament Epistles being encompassed in 2:136?

The church's canonized Epistles of the New Testament seems entirely out of the scope of that verse in Quran.

However I think gospels don't fit either. None are the gospel given to Jesus/according to Jesus. The canonized gospels in the Bible are pseudonymous/questionable authorship. They are worse than the Hadiths in this sense. So I don't see how any of the New Testament just on that grounds can fit into Quran 2:136 definition. None of NT was revelation given to any of the mentioned prophets in that Quran verse. And I believe a good case can be made against the Torah/Pentateuch on grounds of authorship as well.

However, I do find your point helpful that the Quran seems to acknowledge corruption and alternation of texts had already taken place at the time of the revelation of the Quran. This is something I was struggling with and helps bring some answers and clarity for me.

But this is confusing and brings up more questions for me...

So from what I understand you are saying Bible is corrupt and much of it would be diametrically opposed to the Quran...but parts of it should still be valued as revelation from God?

This seems to get complicated and serious task of determining what is inspired and what is corruptions and lies about God. Because what is inspired would be authoritative and binding upon a believer. So this is no small issue.

I understand that using the Quran as primary guide you can easily reject things that clearly go against the Quran but there is a lot in the Bible that will fall into category of things the Quran is silent about and yet those things in Bible could be outright lies against God and not what He revealed and spiritual hurtful to us. This seems very subjective and a lot of grey area to work though and spiritual danger.

Im struggling to see from a textual practical level how one can take the two revelations (Quran and Bible) together and having it so easy black and white even if you are bestowed with spiritual insight into the Quran and its truths. Some things that clearly contradict are black and white but reality is that most of the Bible text will not be that. It will fall into the Quranic silence area...

So I can understand many Quranists replacement/abrogation position against the whole canonized Bible.

 

[Omarew]

I have backed up to asking what was authored by Moses and Jesus? What specifically is the Quran speaking of when is refers to Torah and Gospel?

Excellent questions. I really don't know what was given to Moses and Jesus. And I don't even know what the quran specifically refers to with "quran" itself ("Al naml, 1. Ta, Seen. These are the Signs of the Quran AND an explicit book" quran is not exactly the book).

My concern is that just because we currently lable something "torah" or "gospel" does not automatically mean that is what Quran is speaking of by those words.

Absolutely. I'm with you. Also yahood and nasaaraa encompasses people who would never call themselves as such.

Do you believe current codified Pentateuch/Torah that we have is the one authored by Moses?

It makes no sense that Moses would receive a revelation recounting his own story, nor would he author a book refering to himself in the 3rd person, so Exodus at least wouldn't be part of that. So, no.

Do you think gospels in New Testament Bible authored by Jesus/what Quran is referring to as the injeel?

And I assume you don't include New Testament Epistles being encompassed in 2:136?

The church's canonized Epistles of the New Testament seems entirely out of the scope of that verse in Quran.

However I think gospels don't fit either. None are the gospel given to Jesus/according to Jesus. The canonized gospels in the Bible are pseudonymous/questionable authorship. They are worse than the Hadiths in this sense. So I don't see how any of the New Testament just on that grounds can fit into Quran 2:136 definition. None of NT was revelation given to any of the mentioned prophets in that Quran verse. And I believe a good case can be made against the Torah/Pentateuch on grounds of authorship as well.

If anything, the epistles might have been what the patriarchs were given. Many people can tell which ones sound completely off, don't they? *coughPaulhhem

So from what I understand you are saying Bible is corrupt and much of it would be diametrically opposed to the Quran...but parts of it should still be valued as revelation from God?

What I'm saying, sister, is what Allah ordered me to say: "I believe in previous scripture". Someone brings me scripture claiming it's from one of the categories in 2:136, I say I believe in it, knowing that my book is overwhelming theirs, and if they don't want to accept mine, I call them to follow theirs.
I'd never openly say: "I don't believe in previous scripture". Nor would I say to people of scripture "I believe in previous scripture but In reality all previous scripture is lost, and what you guys hold on to is total rubbish"
Nor would I say to a fellow quran followers that says what Allah ordered them to say: "We only accept quran here, and if you ever dare quote yahood and nasaaraa's scripture, we'll kick you out for promoting it".

This seems to get complicated and serious task of determining what is inspired and what is corruptions and lies about God.

Hold my beer.

Because what is inspired would be authoritative and binding upon a believer. So this is no small issue.

You shouldn't worry about any constraints that would come from Allah's guidance. You will only find mercy and alleviation instead inshallah. But I can't think of anything in the "bible" that would be authoritative and binding to us! If you have an example for such thing, please bring forward.
But note for instance that the new testament mentions circumcision 75 times. Christians read that it is part of the covenant of Abraham they are supposed to follow, yet most don't circumcise. There is no mention of circucision in the quran yet all muzzies do it. I could argue everything the quran orders, every idea it brings forward, muzzis do and believe the opposite.
Point is: Most people who claim to believe in a scripture don't follow it. But if you are truly willing to submit to his command, he might show you your rites.

I understand that using the Quran as primary guide you can easily reject things that clearly go against the Quran but there is a lot in the Bible that will fall into category of things the Quran is silent about and yet those things in Bible could be outright lies against God and not what He revealed and spiritual hurtful to us. This seems very subjective and a lot of grey area to work though and spiritual danger.

And what if what the quran doesn't contradict were true?

And be assured that Allah guides the righteous even through falsehood:
53 That He might make what the satan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and those whose hearts are hard, — and the wrongdoers are in extreme schism —
54 And that those given knowledge might know that it is the truth from thy Lord, and believe in it, and their hearts might humble themselves to Him; and God guides those who heed warning to a straight path.

Im struggling to see from a textual practical level how one can take the two revelations (Quran and Bible) together and having it so easy black and white even if you are bestowed with spiritual insight into the Quran and its truths. Some things that clearly contradict are black and white but reality is that most of the Bible text will not be that. It will fall into the Quranic silence area...

Don't expect to see how the quran recounts detailed explanation of all things if you don't believe this statement first. In order to test any theory, you have to assume it's true, at least temporarily. Submit, and only then you will see inshallah (there is no silence area).

So I can understand many Quranists replacement/abrogation position against the whole canonized Bible.

Allah tells you otherwise. Trust Allah's guidance. If he wills, he'll let you distinguish truth from what satan casts, and even falsehood will strengthen your belief. By Allah, it did to mine.

 

[Rez]

Quran 7:178
Whom God guides, he is guided; and whom God sends astray, it is they who are the losers.

If this is so, then there is no need to censor. .. especially when it is the case of curiosity and speculation… I understand correcting fabrications/lies… but controversial ideas? Questions?

 

[Uncovered Faith]

Thank you for taking time to write a thoughtful answer. I think I can see your position from the verses you sited and this is helpful for me to sort through this issue more.

I have backed up to asking what was authored by Moses and Jesus? What specifically is the Quran speaking of when is refers to Torah and Gospel?

My concern is that just because we currently lable something "torah" or "gospel" does not automatically mean that is what Quran is speaking of by those words. Just as we both know from Quranic view of even just the salat or Christians meaning of Messiah and Gospel. Religion has a tendency of altering meaning of words. So I want to not just assume at this point.

Do you believe current codified Pentateuch/Torah that we have is the one authored by Moses?

Do you think gospels in New Testament Bible authored by Jesus/what Quran is referring to as the injeel?

And I assume you don't include New Testament Epistles being encompassed in 2:136?

The church's canonized Epistles of the New Testament seems entirely out of the scope of that verse in Quran.

However I think gospels don't fit either. None are the gospel given to Jesus/according to Jesus. The canonized gospels in the Bible are pseudonymous/questionable authorship. They are worse than the Hadiths in this sense. So I don't see how any of the New Testament just on that grounds can fit into Quran 2:136 definition. None of NT was revelation given to any of the mentioned prophets in that Quran verse. And I believe a good case can be made against the Torah/Pentateuch on grounds of authorship as well.

However, I do find your point helpful that the Quran seems to acknowledge corruption and alternation of texts had already taken place at the time of the revelation of the Quran. This is something I was struggling with and helps bring some answers and clarity for me.

But this is confusing and brings up more questions for me...

So from what I understand you are saying Bible is corrupt and much of it would be diametrically opposed to the Quran...but parts of it should still be valued as revelation from God?

This seems to get complicated and serious task of determining what is inspired and what is corruptions and lies about God. Because what is inspired would be authoritative and binding upon a believer. So this is no small issue.

I understand that using the Quran as primary guide you can easily reject things that clearly go against the Quran but there is a lot in the Bible that will fall into category of things the Quran is silent about and yet those things in Bible could be outright lies against God and not what He revealed and spiritual hurtful to us. This seems very subjective and a lot of grey area to work though and spiritual danger.

Im struggling to see from a textual practical level how one can take the two revelations (Quran and Bible) together and having it so easy black and white even if you are bestowed with spiritual insight into the Quran and its truths. Some things that clearly contradict are black and white but reality is that most of the Bible text will not be that. It will fall into the Quranic silence area...

So I can understand many Quranists replacement/abrogation position against the whole canonized Bible.

I think that it is important to have a basic understanding of The Bible in order to appreciate and deepen the understanding of certain passages within The Quran. When I say Bible I am referring to The Torah and The Psalms, not so much the books of The gospel. I heard Sam Gerrans say yesterday that when the word is translated as ‘Christian’ it actually means ‘Nazarene’ I find that interesting because it falls in line with the research I have done regarding The Injeel.

For example in Surah 2 there is a story that makes little sense unless one has some knowledge of the customs among the Jews regarding blood sacrifice. I have posted the verse below with Asad’s notes. This story comes from the book of Deuteronomy.

Sheikh Abou El Fadl is the only Islamic scholar I am aware of that has extensive Biblical understanding and is able to apply that to his teachings from The Quran.

There are a few Christian scholars in academia that teach Islamic studies. One of those is professor Gabriel Said Reynolds who works in a Catholic university. His understanding of Islam is quite thorough although he remains a Catholic. I am not aware of any Muslims working in Universities teaching Christianity!