Quranic Views of the Torah and Gospel Scriptures?

[GodGuides4:175]

I'm confused...what is the Quranic view of the Torah and Gospel Scriptures in regards to inspiration and preservation? If no longer preserved when did this happen? What evidence is there to support that?

I assume based on my reading of Quran so far (which I'm very new reading and could be misunderstanding this) time of Muhammad it was preserved enough to be upheld as a valid source to confirm message of Quran?

But from what I know Torah and Gospels manuscripts though having variances (which demonstrates they are not inerrant) but despite that it still has been consistent in ancient manuscripts and secondary Christian and Jewish scholars writings enough that are dated pre and post time of writing Quran that has maintained a level of consistency in messages to a point that it would conflict with Quran's message...so how can that be reconciled with what Quran says about those Scriptures?

And Moses is attributed with authorship of the actual written Torah/Pentateuch texts correct? 53:36-37 and 87:18-19

If so that is problematic as the Pentateuch has clear internal issues in the texts themselves showing at least parts were written hundreds years after Moses's death. For obvious reasons Moses can't be author writing about Israel and kingdoms and the kings. Lol

And another example is references to "house" of the Lord in pentatuch would date that at least after Solomon. Book of Samuel clearly states God declaring the change from "tent" to "house" upon the commemorating the building of temple by Solomon. So that is 450 years after Moses death referring to "house of Lord" instead of tent by writer of pentatuch...even though Christians and Jews commonly attribute Moses authorship to the Pentateuch I think within the texts themselves it can be demonstrated that what we have found for manuscripts and what is established and accepted as Torah was NOT penned by Moses himself but instead hundreds of years later... How does this all reconcile?

 

[GodGuides4:175]

Just to provide a few citations from Torah of what I mean that Pentateuch is not authored by Moses but hundreds of years later...

Genesis chapter 36:31 "before any king reigned over the sons of Israel" shows author has knowledge of reality of kings reigning over Israel. It is not prophetic language or consistent of Moses authorship. It is written by someone after Moses detailing history. Whoever the author is of Genesis is writing from perspective of known fact of kings ruling in Israel and is accidently made clear in that verse the authorship perspective of it can't be Moses.

Exodus 16:35 is accidently written showing authors perspective of Israelites settled in Canaan (which happen after Moses death) so this is written by someone looking backwards not Moses.

There are many like this when one drops the Moses authorship bias.

Num 12:3 "Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any man who was on the face of the earth" ....clearly an admirer of Moses lol can't imagine Moses writing that about himself and in "humilty" pulling back to write his own praise about his own "humilty" in third person. That is total nonsense

Exodus 23:19 refers to "House of God" but 2 Samuel 7:6 God is reported to have said that He only dwelled in a "tent" not "house" up until that point. So any reference to "House of the Lord" is someone writing after tent days. So that means those laws given all the way back in Exodus 23 supposedly to Moses are written by someone else hundreds years after Moses who accidentally refered to "house" of the Lord.

I think it can seen within the text itself to be written by someone hundreds of years later trying to craft it as Moses authorship. This is some of the nonsense why I could no longer believe Torah or Bible to be inerrant inspired or preserved words of God.

And then add in the horrific teachings and things attributed to God in the Torah and canonized OT that are inconsistent with Quran.

And the Gospel and NT epistles is a disaster ranging from the canonizing to authorship of nearly every book to clear contradictions....I think that one I don't need to give citations for making reasonable conclusions that it's corrupted...but that corrupted form is what all the scholars were consistently citing before and after Quran...

So I'm really struggling to see how this all reconciles with Quran's affirmations of those Scriptures...

 

[saidmirza]

Peace,

Following.

 

[Ishaq]

I’ll have a think and try to add more later.

From what I currently understand, the Quran confirms what came before it, e.g. the scriptures. What we don’t have are those in their original form.

That message was for the people at the time. They had them. I *think* they were sold for a cheap price, by that I mean to hide truth, change laws.

The Quran affirms the previous scriptures in their original form, which we may never come across.

Not the man written versions we see today, akin to the Hadith literature we also don’t believe in.

 

[saidmirza]

Peace,
If we can collate verses that talk about this subject, I think we can come to a good answer to this question.

 

[Uncovered Faith]

I'm confused...what is the Quranic view of the Torah and Gospel Scriptures in regards to inspiration and preservation? If no longer preserved when did this happen? What evidence is there to support that?

I assume based on my reading of Quran so far (which I'm very new reading and could be misunderstanding this) time of Muhammad it was preserved enough to be upheld as a valid source to confirm message of Quran?

But from what I know Torah and Gospels manuscripts though having variances (which demonstrates they are not inerrant) but despite that it still has been consistent in ancient manuscripts and secondary Christian and Jewish scholars writings enough that are dated pre and post time of writing Quran that has maintained a level of consistency in messages to a point that it would conflict with Quran's message...so how can that be reconciled with what Quran says about those Scriptures?

And Moses is attributed with authorship of the actual written Torah/Pentateuch texts correct? 53:36-37 and 87:18-19

If so that is problematic as the Pentateuch has clear internal issues in the texts themselves showing at least parts were written hundreds years after Moses's death. For obvious reasons Moses can't be author writing about Israel and kingdoms and the kings. Lol

And another example is references to "house" of the Lord in pentatuch would date that at least after Solomon. Book of Samuel clearly states God declaring the change from "tent" to "house" upon the commemorating the building of temple by Solomon. So that is 450 years after Moses death referring to "house of Lord" instead of tent by writer of pentatuch...even though Christians and Jews commonly attribute Moses authorship to the Pentateuch I think within the texts themselves it can be demonstrated that what we have found for manuscripts and what is established and accepted as Torah was NOT penned by Moses himself but instead hundreds of years later... How does this all reconcile?

I highly recommend this series of lectures on the Old Testament by a Yale professor. I watched it a few years ago and it answered a lot of questions.,

In regards to The Quran and its view of The Torah there are many passages that refer to stories. What you will find is variances in those stories. What you have to remember is that The Old Testament was written a long time after the events ( or supposed events!) in a framework that made the Jews sound like a victorious and favoured people. The theme all along is that they are God’s chosen.
There is an instance in the story of Abraham and Isaac in the Quran where it is Ishmael and not Isaac who is put forward for sacrifice. I initially found that very strange because it was totally different from the story I grew up with. But I was advised to read a book ( I will have to get back to you with the title as it has slipped my mind) where the author goes in to depth about how it couldn’t have been Isaac and was in deed Ishmael. It is obvious that the story was changed in order to suit the Jews mindset that Isaac was the chosen child not the son of an Egyptian woman!
I am going through the Quran using an online Tafsir in-depth teaching with sheikh Abou El Fadl ( Usuli institute) he is the only Muslim scholar I know who also has an understanding of the Bible and often refers back to Bible verses to explain stories in the Quran. I recommend starting with Surah Bakarah day one. The videos are long, 2-3 hrs each but I put my air pods in to listen as I go about my day. He is not an ‘expert’ on The Bible like you may be familiar with but he understands it enough to be able to talk about it. It’s been a huge blessing to me with my Christian background.

 

[Uncovered Faith]

 

[Uncovered Faith]

 

[Uncovered Faith]

This was also good to understand The Islamic view of Jesus.

 

[saidmirza]

And how come they to thee for judgment when they have the Torah wherein is the judgment of God, then turn away after that? And those are not believers.
(5:43)
We sent down the Torah wherein is guidance and light. The prophets who submitted judged thereby those who hold to Judaism as did the rabbis and the religious scholars with what they were given charge of the Writ of God and were thereto witnesses: “So fear not mankind but fear Me; and sell not My proofs at a cheap price.” And whoso judges not by what God has sent down, it is they who are the false claimers of guidance.
(5:44)
And We prescribed for them therein a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds just requital; but whoso forgives it by way of charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoso judges not by what God has sent down: it is they who are the wrongdoers.
(5:45)
And We sent Jesus, son of Mary in their footsteps confirming what was before him of the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel wherein was guidance and light, both confirming what was before him of the Torah and as guidance and admonition for those of prudent fear.
(5:46)
And let the people of the Gospel judge by what God sent down therein; and whoso judges not by what God has sent down: it is they who are the perfidious.
(5:47)
And We sent down to thee the Writ with the truth, confirming what is before it of the Writ, and as a control over it. So judge thou between them by what God has sent down; and follow thou not their vain desires away from what has come to thee of the truth. For each of you We appointed an ordinance and a procedure. And had God willed, He could have made you one community; but that He might try you in what He gave you[...]. — So vie in good deeds; unto God will you return all together, and He will inform you of that wherein you differed —
(5:48)
And judge thou between them by what God has sent down; and follow thou not their vain desires, and beware thou of them lest they seduce thee away from some of what God has sent down to thee. And if they turn away, know thou that God but intends to afflict them for some of their transgressions; and many among men are perfidious.
(5:49)

O you who heed warning: say not: “Attend thou to us,” but say: “Look thou upon us,” and listen; and for the false claimers of guidance is a painful punishment.
(2:104)
Neither those who ignore warning among the doctors of the Law nor the idolaters wish that there be sent down upon you any good from your Lord, but God chooses for His mercy whom He wills; and God is possessor of tremendous bounty.
(2:105)
What proof We abolish or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or the like thereof; knowest thou not that God is over all things powerful?
(2:106)

 

[GodGuides4:175]

I’ll have a think and try to add more later.

From what I currently understand, the Quran confirms what came before it, e.g. the scriptures. What we don’t have are those in their original form.

That message was for the people at the time. They had them. I *think* they were sold for a cheap price, by that I mean to hide truth, change laws.

The Quran affirms the previous scriptures in their original form, which we may never come across.

Not the man written versions we see today, akin to the Hadith literature we also don’t believe in.

Thank you! I appreciate your response. I think I understand what you have shared and think that I agree with you...but Im still struggling with how to reconcile and understand this.

 

[saidmirza]

There is an instance in the story of Abraham and Isaac in the Quran where it is Ishmael and not Isaac who is put forward for sacrifice. I initially found that very strange because it was totally different from the story I grew up with.

The Qur'an does not specify which son: I avoid all commentaries and explanations by Muslims and non-Muslims alike and stick to the Qur'an alone.

And when he reached the age of working with him, he said: “O my son: I saw in a dream, that I was sacrificing thee. So look thou — what seest thou?” He said: “O my father: do thou what thou art commanded; thou wilt find me, if God wills, of the patient.”
(37:102)

 

[Uncovered Faith]

The Qur'an does not specify which son: I avoid all commentaries and explanations by Muslims and non-Muslims alike and stick to the Qur'an alone.

I didn’t realise that Ishmael’s name wasn’t mentioned. It’s not easy coming from a Christian background and having to re learn things… I’m too old
One of the problems I’ve encountered is opening an IG account to document my journey. I’ve had numerous Muslims try to influence me, recommended books etc. When I’ve followed my own leaning I get abused for mentioning the scholar or book I chose!

 

[GodGuides4:175]

I highly recommend this series of lectures on the Old Testament by a Yale professor. I watched it a few years ago and it answered a lot of questions.,

In regards to The Quran and its view of The Torah there are many passages that refer to stories. What you will find is variances in those stories. What you have to remember is that The Old Testament was written a long time after the events ( or supposed events!) in a framework that made the Jews sound like a victorious and favoured people. The theme all along is that they are God’s chosen.
There is an instance in the story of Abraham and Isaac in the Quran where it is Ishmael and not Isaac who is put forward for sacrifice. I initially found that very strange because it was totally different from the story I grew up with. But I was advised to read a book ( I will have to get back to you with the title as it has slipped my mind) where the author goes in to depth about how it couldn’t have been Isaac and was in deed Ishmael. It is obvious that the story was changed in order to suit the Jews mindset that Isaac was the chosen child not the son of an Egyptian woman!
I am going through the Quran using an online Tafsir in-depth teaching with sheikh Abou El Fadl ( Usuli institute) he is the only Muslim scholar I know who also has an understanding of the Bible and often refers back to Bible verses to explain stories in the Quran. I recommend starting with Surah Bakarah day one. The videos are long, 2-3 hrs each but I put my air pods in to listen as I go about my day. He is not an ‘expert’ on The Bible like you may be familiar with but he understands it enough to be able to talk about it. It’s been a huge blessing to me with my Christian background.

Thank you so much for the help and your time!

I recently was thinking on the whole Isaac Ishmael thing...and how that is upheld in Christianity to be one of the greatest OT sacrificial Jesus typology of sacrifice of "the only son" and yet that is built on a lie/falsehood. Isaac was not the "only" son even per Bible own account. Its like the truth is there and made clear despite all the lies and corruption of religions.

There is a lot of deconstruction and presuppositions to work through still. Just this morning I caught a Rabbi saying "God of Israel" and that stood out shocking to me for the first time. And left heavy hearted at how many times I thought nothing of this and just accepted it. Which also lead me to reading on the name Yahweh (YHWH) that is very interesting in its possible origins and use...

Thank you for all the suggestions for reading and lectures and sharing your perspectives. It is a gift from God to have the opportunity to know you!

 

[Uncovered Faith]

Thank you so much for the help and your time!

I recently was thinking on the whole Isaac Ishmael thing...and how that is upheld in Christianity to be one of the greatest OT sacrificial Jesus typology of sacrifice of "the only son" and yet that is built on a lie/falsehood. Isaac was not the "only" son even per Bible own account. Its like the truth is there and made clear despite all the lies and corruption of religions.

There is a lot of deconstruction and presuppositions to work through still. Just this morning I caught a Rabbi saying "God of Israel" and that stood out shocking to me for the first time. And left heavy hearted at how many times I thought nothing of this and just accepted it. Which also lead me to reading on the name Yahweh (YHWH) that is very interesting in its possible origins and use...

Thank you for all the suggestions for reading and lectures and sharing your perspectives. It is a gift from God to have the opportunity to know you!

I understand completely. It’s like emerging from a cocoon and learning how to be a butterfly after spending years as a caterpillar!

 

[GodGuides4:175]

The Qur'an does not specify which son: I avoid all commentaries and explanations by Muslims and non-Muslims alike and stick to the Qur'an alone.

Oh thank you for that insight! I had thought that Ishmael was offered. (Likely from my Christian upbringing of apologetics) But that would be the common Traditional Islamic position that Ishmael was offered? Correct? Do Hadiths teach this?

What a journey for you to deconstruct all that as well. Truly how great is our need for God's guidance. We are all hopeless without Him.

 

[GodGuides4:175]

It is not letting me reply to your comment...but this is in response to saidmirza #10 siting 5:43-49 and 2:104-106

______

I think I understand something why you share those verses...they were already forsaking/corrupted what had been given to them and made their own religion and laws?

And reading that makes me think...maybe the "Torah" given to Moses is very concise and simple? Such as sited there in v. 45 "life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth..." So they were complicating and adding to the Torah that was given to Moses through addition of their own scriptures and practices? Or would you disagree with my understanding here?

Which would relate back to the other brothers point he brought up the likeness of the Hadiths...so basically what we all have as the standardized codified Pentatuch and Judaism practices goes beyond the Torah given to Moses and has parallels to Traditional Islam and Hadith and Sharia goes way beyond the Quran...?

And this indeed makes me have another think about the NT. In the NT Gospels it is often the source of tension that Jesus is not following the teachers of law/misguiders/Pharisees (such as rituals, handwashing laws, sabbath activities etc) Yet the NT accounts also record him as saying that he is obeying and upholding the law and prophets to "every dot and iota" but yet that is what is noted as source of frequent contention that he was not following their laws....interesting.

I understand the current Pentateuch not even written by Moses does not conflict with those passages in Quran...actually supports that position...but I thought that I read somewhere in Quran something about using the scriptures given in past to confirm and validate the message being given to Muhammad?

 

[Uncovered Faith]

.

It is not letting me reply to your comment...but this is in response to saidmirza #10 siting 5:43-49 and 2:104-106

______

I think I understand something why you share those verses...they were already forsaking/corrupted what had been given to them and made their own religion and laws?

And reading that makes me think...maybe the "Torah" given to Moses is very concise and simple? Such as sited there in v. 45 "life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth..." So they were complicating and adding to the Torah that was given to Moses through addition of their own scriptures and practices? Or would you disagree with my understanding here?

Which would relate back to the other brothers point he brought up the likeness of the Hadiths...so basically what we all have as the standardized codified Pentatuch and Judaism practices goes beyond the Torah given to Moses and has parallels to Traditional Islam and Hadith and Sharia goes way beyond the Quran...?

And this indeed makes me have another think about the NT. In the NT Gospels it is often the source of tension that Jesus is not following the teachers of law/misguiders/Pharisees (such as rituals, handwashing laws, sabbath activities etc) Yet the NT accounts also record him as saying that he is obeying and upholding the law and prophets to "every dot and iota" but yet that is what is noted as source of frequent contention that he was not following their laws....interesting.

I understand the current Pentateuch not even written by Moses does not conflict with those passages in Quran...actually supports that position...but I thought that I read somewhere in Quran something about using the scriptures given in past to confirm and validate the message being given to Muhammad?

I think humans have contributed to making God’s word very complicated! The Yale series of lectures on The Old Testament were very helpful to me and broke down a lot of pre conceived ideas I had. Prior to that I was a very literal believer.
Someone said to me once that The Old Testament was ‘beautiful literature’ and I was offended. I thought to myself, ‘it’s more than literature, it’s the word of God!’ But she was right.
In regards to The New Testament the Quran refers to it as the injil ( please correct me if I am wrong) I’ve spent hours researching it. From what I understand it is not The New Testament as we know it but more likely sayings of Jesus which would have been prominent by early Christian sects such as The Nazarenes and Ebionites. If you have ever read The gospel of Thomas you would find a book full of teachings that people like Rev Cynthia Bourgault describe as ‘wisdom teaching’. Marcus Borg was the man who finally convinced me that Jesus was not God. He has put together a book based on The Q gospel. The Q gospel is the theory that Matthew and Luke ( I think!) copied extensively from Mark but there was another source that a theologian put forward as being Q. I have a copy of Borg’s Q gospel and once again it is similar to The gospel of Thomas in as much S it is a book of simple teachings of Jesus. It is Christianity without all the bells and whistles!!
I hope I am making sense. I am no academic just a woman who has spent years reading and researching. My mind bubbles over with too much information!

 

[Uncovered Faith]

 

[Rez]

Dr. Ammon Hillman, an expert in early Greek, proposes a controversial theory that the Septuagint—commonly viewed as a Greek translation of Hebrew scriptures—may not have Hebrew origins at all. Instead, he argues that these texts could have originated in early Greek, suggesting that much of what is foundational in Judeo-Christian and ‘Brand Islam’ traditions might actually be based on earlier Greek sources. This theory raises significant questions about the authenticity of these religious texts.

This perspective resonates with critiques by thinkers like Sam Gerrans and Said Mirza, who also challenge mainstream religious interpretations, particularly within Islam. These insights could potentially lead to new understandings of the Quran, such as reconsidering the identity of the Sabaeans mentioned in Quran 2:62, the true millat of Ibrahim, and other key aspects of faith.

A broader interpretation of the Quran (my own perspective) may suggest that all truth revealed to humanity across time and cultures is part of the Quranic message. This includes the possibility that even the earliest revelations to figures like Adam and Eve could be considered Quranic, with anything that opposes truth being the “Adversary” or Shaitan—not an adversary of God, but of Truth itself. While this view may be seen as controversial, it is supported by Quranic references, emphasizing the importance of seeking knowledge and understanding as central to faith.

This last idea I hope you can tie with this… my wife watches a lot of Brand Islam related content… stuff that doesn’t resonate with me or make sense… and that many of you will find troubling too… such as this idea that its haram for us to have a dog.. or that if a fly’s wing contaminates my cup of tea or coffee.. well, just dip the other wing in it! … ok, so here goes another but different point… she was watching with pride and glee a street preacher (Muslim) asking people in the West if they were Christian or Muslim.. most of course saying Christian… and then the follow up question… can you recite 2 or 3 bible verses for us? And most could not… he then proceeded and when presented with people who didn’t identify as Christian but instead as Muslim!.. he asked if they could recite 2 or 3 verses from the Quran… and of course they could!… but if he asked what these verses meant… we would have similar results… I contend that most who enter the Masjids enter and exit with the same knowledge they entered with… ask brothers and sisters which verses other than Al Fatiha were recited in their Friday prayer and in the Kutba… I bet in most cases… crickets… and even when they can recall that another was recited… they couldn’t tell you what it meant by heart… and what is meant is far more important than rote memory! Knowing correct meaning is important. Discerning truth from falsehood and living according to truth trumps tradition every day in my book. (That’s not a literal book by the way.. and neither was the Quran in Muhammads time.. I realize that the Shia’s believe the Quran was written in his lifetime… but most scholars especially of the Sunni Brand Islam believe it was put to book format later)…

Anyhow, I don’t intend to disturb… only to raise authentic questions that are on my mind… and I do believe it is a useful thing when people are authentic and contemplative in replying.. exploring… maybe you will clear something up for me… or I for you? … or we will have more questions, more research, more exploring… more and deeper contemplations! I am not seeking retorts or gaslighting… shame etc. We’ve all had enough of that I think… whether from others or ourselves.